Ren Zhengfei's Front Page Interview in the People's Daily

On the front page of the People’s Daily today, there’s an interview with Huawei CEO Ren Zhengfei. This is really remarkable. CEOs, particularly tech CEOs, do get quoted in reports on the front page and in the paper. But you don’t get such top billing. It just goes to show the significance of Huawei as an entity for the Party-state.

I’ll be doing a separate edition later in the day with the other key reports from the paper. I thought this deserved its own space. Below is the full text of the interview broken down into three chunks.

But before you get to that, here are some of the most significant points that I think he makes:

• Our single chips are still one generation behind the United States. We use mathematics to compensate for physics, non-Moore to compensate for Moore, and cluster computing to compensate for single chips; in terms of results, we can then reach practical outcomes.

• Software is not something that can strangle us; it is mathematical symbols and codes stacked from some cutting-edge operators and algorithms; there are no blocking cables. The difficulty is in our education and training, talent pipeline construction.

• Basic research takes not just 5-10 years, generally it takes 10 years, 20 years or even longer. If we don’t do basic research, there are no roots. Even if the leaves are luxuriant and thriving, they will fall when the wind blows. Buying foreign products is very expensive, because the price includes their investment in basic research. So, whether China does basic research or not, we still have to pay money. The question is can we pay it to our own people doing basic research?

• He calls for society to be “tolerant” of those engaged in theoretical research and for the country to “support them.” “We invest 180 billion yuan in R&D every year. Out of this, about 60 billion yuan is for basic theoretical research, without assessment. Around 120 billion is invested in product development, this investment must be assessed. Without theory there is no breakthrough, we cannot catch up with the United States.”

• Why can only socialism do things that do not make money? One of the purposes of socialism is to develop society. The socialist market economic system that China has established is a great achievement. From the perspective of infrastructure construction, we can only follow the path of socialist market economy, otherwise high-speed rail, highways, dams... these things cannot be built.

• The technical key to AI is having sufficient electricity and developed information networks. Developing AI requires a power guarantee. China’s power generation and grid transmission are very good, the communication network is the world’s most developed…

• There is no need to worry about the chip problem. Using methods such as superposition and clustering, the calculation results are equivalent to the most advanced level. In terms of software, there will be thousands of open source software to meet the needs of the entire society in the future.

Q: Facing external blockades and suppression, encountering many difficulties, what do you feel about them in your heart?

A: I haven’t thought about it; thinking about it is also useless. Don’t think about difficulties, just do things, and move forward step by step.

Q: There has been a ‘warning’ about the use of Ascend chips. Has this had any impact on Huawei?

A: There are many companies in China that make chips, and many of them are doing well. Huawei is one of them. The United States has exaggerated Huawei’s achievements. Huawei is not that formidable. We need to work hard to reach their evaluation. Our single chips are still one generation behind the United States. We use mathematics to compensate for physics, non-Moore to compensate for Moore, and cluster computing to compensate for single chips; in terms of results, we can then reach practical outcomes.

Q: If there are difficulties, what are the main difficulties?

A: Difficulties are difficulties, when is there no difficulty? Was slash-and-burn agriculture not difficult? Was the Stone Age not difficult? When humans were using stone tools, who could have imagined high-speed rail? China has opportunities in mid- to low-end chips. Dozens or even hundreds of Chinese chip companies are working very hard. Especially in compound semiconductors, the opportunities are greater. For silicon-based chips, we use mathematics to compensate for physics, non-Moore to compensate for Moore, utilising the principles of cluster computing, we can ensure meeting our current needs. Software is not something that can strangle us; it is mathematical symbols and codes stacked from some cutting-edge operators and algorithms; there are no blocking cables. The difficulty is in our education and training, talent pipeline construction. China will have hundreds and thousands of operating systems in the future, supporting China’s industrial, agricultural, medical and other progress.

Q: Right now, there are many voices praising Huawei, and a high level of public recognition.

A: When people say we’re good, it also brings great pressure. If people scold us a bit, we’ll be more clear-headed. What we make are commodities; when people use them, there will be criticism. This is normal. We allow people to scold us. As long as they speak the truth, even if it is criticism, we support it. Praise or scolding, don’t pay attention to either. What matters is whether we can do our job well. As long as we do a good job ourselves, there’s no problem.

Q: From your attitude towards difficulties and criticism, I sense that you have great inner strength. You don’t care about praise or criticism, but are determined to do your own thing well. This should be an important reason why Huawei has been able to get to where it is today?

A: There are still too many people who say we are good. Everyone should instead pay more attention to understanding those engaged in theoretical research. Their ideas are lofty and not widely appreciated. Moreover, it takes decades or even hundreds of years for them to see their contributions come to light. Groundlessly accusing them is not beneficial to the country’s long-term development. We should understand and support those doing theoretical work. We should understand their broad-mindedness, their great obscurity, that is our country’s hope. Don’t praise one and suppress another; those doing theoretical research are the hope of the country’s future.

问：面对外部封锁打压，遇到很多困难，心里怎么想？答：没有想过，想也没有用。不去想困难，干就完了，一步一步往前走。问：昇腾芯片被“警告”使用风险，对华为有什么影响吗？答：中国做芯片的公司很多，许多都做得不错，华为是其中一家。美国是夸大了华为的成绩，华为还没有这么厉害。要努力做才能达到他们的评价。我们单芯片还是落后美国一代，我们用数学补物理、非摩尔补摩尔，用群计算补单芯片，在结果上也能达到实用状况。问：如果说有困难，主要困难是什么？答：困难就困难嘛，什么时候没有困难？刀耕火种的时候不困难吗？石器时代不困难吗？人类用石器的时候，哪能想到有高铁。中国在中低端芯片上是可以有机会的，中国数十、上百家芯片公司都很努力。特别是化合物半导体机会更大。硅基芯片，我们用数学补物理、非摩尔补摩尔，利用集群计算的原理，可以达到满足我们现在的需求。软件是卡不住脖子的，那是数学的图形符号、代码，一些尖端的算子、算法垒起来的，没有阻拦索。困难在我们的教育培养、人才梯队的建设。中国将来会有数百、数千种操作系统，支持中国工业、农业、医疗等的进步。问：现在对华为赞扬的声音很多，对华为的认同度很高。答：说我们好，我们压力也很大。骂我们一点，我们会更清醒一点。我们做的是商品，人们使用就会有批评，这是正常的。我们允许人家骂。只要讲真话，即使是批评，我们也支持。赞声与骂声，都不要在意，而要在乎自己能不能做好。把自己做好，就没有问题。问：从您面对困难、批评的心态，感受到您有一颗强大的内心，就是不在乎是表扬还是批评，而是坚定做好自己的事。这应该是华为能走到今天的一个重要原因。答：说我们好的还是太多了，大家更多要去理解搞理论研究的人，他们曲高和寡，老百姓不了解，而且他们要几十年、上百年才看得见贡献。无端指责他们，是不利于国家长远发展的。我们要理解支持搞理论工作的。我们要理解他们的胸怀，他们伟大的默默无闻，才是我们国家的希望。不要捧一个压一个，搞理论研究的是国家未来的希望.

Q: What do you think of basic theoretical research?

A: When our country has a certain economic strength, it should emphasise theoretical research, especially basic theoretical research. Basic research takes not just 5-10 years, generally it takes 10 years, 20 years or even longer. If we don’t do basic research, there are no roots. Even if the leaves are luxuriant and thriving, they will fall when the wind blows. Buying foreign products is very expensive, because the price includes their investment in basic research. So, whether China does basic research or not, we still have to pay money. The question is can we pay it to our own people doing basic research?

Q: Regarding basic research, people may find it difficult to understand it for the time being, and many will ask what use is researching this, what benefits can it produce?

A: There are inherently few people in the world who understand scientific breakthroughs, and those who do not understand should not judge them. Einstein discovered that light bends, which was only verified a hundred years later. There’s an agricultural scientist in Guizhou named Luo Dengyi. In the 1940s, when he was analysing and researching the nutritional components of fruits and vegetables, he discovered a wild fruit called Rosa roxburghii with very high vitamin content. At the time, China was still in the midst of the war of resistance, social education levels were still very poor; few people understood. Later he wrote a paper saying Rosa roxburghii was the king of vitamin C. After nearly 100 years, Guizhou made it into a natural vitamin-rich Rosa roxburghii beverage, a luxury item among vitamin drinks, nearly 100 yuan per bottle, which is highly sought after. The Rosa roxburghii industry has become a channel for farmers to escape poverty and become wealthy. Only then did people truly recognise Luo Dengyi, who during the anti-Japanese war flames sat at a broken table.

Q: Many research results seem like they don’t matter at the moment, but they are often of great use in the end.

A: Theoretical scientists work in loneliness; we must have strategic patience and understand them. Tu Youyou’s work on artemisinin is the same. It is the same with Huang Danian, who ‘explored innovation and served the country with sincerity’. The symbols, formulas, and thoughts in their heads, there are only a few people in the world who can communicate with them. We must respect theoretical scientists because we don’t understand their culture; society must be tolerant and the country must support them.

Q: The basic research cycle will be very long, but enterprises need to focus on efficiency.

A: We invest 180 billion yuan in R&D every year. Out of this, about 60 billion yuan is for basic theoretical research, without assessment. Around 120 billion is invested in product development, this investment must be assessed. Without theory there is no breakthrough, we cannot catch up with the United States.

Q: This is a kind of long-term thinking. I have heard that Huawei has a ‘Huang Danian Tea House’.

A: Huang Danian was a great scientist. Our country discovered this person during the Gulf War. The US military had a pod under helicopters that detected weapons Saddam buried in the desert, and accurately destroyed them as soon as the war started. Upon investigation, we found this pod was made by a Chinese person. Huang Danian made a mineral exploration pod at a British university, which NATO used as a weapon. He resigned and returned to China to become a teacher at Jilin University. He used his own money to request for a 40-square-meter room from the university, opened a tea house providing free coffee, and launched the initiative ‘absorbing the energy of the universe with a cup of coffee’. We got authorisation from his family, using his name to create a Huang Danian Tea House non-profit network platform, freely letting everyone access world scientific and technological information. At the same time, we are widening the opening for basic research, cooperating with major universities. These are all strategic investments that are not subject to assessment. For basic theory, we have established an internal mechanism. We don’t know when results can be achieved, and we don’t make requirements of the scientists.

问：怎么看基础理论研究？答：当我国拥有一定经济实力的时候，要重视理论特别是基础理论的研究。基础研究不止5—10年，一般要10年、20年或更长的时间。如果不搞基础研究，就没根。即使叶茂，欣欣向荣，风一吹就会倒的。买国外的产品很贵，因为价格里面就包含他们在基础研究上的投入。所以，中国搞不搞基础研究，也要付钱的，能不能付给自己搞基础研究的人。问：对基础研究，人们可能一时难以理解，会问研究这个有什么用，能产生什么效益。答：科学的突破，世界上理解的人本来就少，不理解的人就不要去评价。爱因斯坦发现光线会弯曲，是一百年后再证实的。贵州有个农学家罗登义，上世纪四十年代，他分析研究水果蔬菜营养成分的时候，发现一种维生素含量很高的野果子刺梨。中国那时还在抗战时期，社会教育水平还很低，没几个人懂。后来写了一篇论文，说刺梨是维C之王。经历了近百年，贵州把它做成了一种天然富含维生素的刺梨饮料，维生素饮料中的奢侈品，近百元一瓶，受到追捧，刺梨产业成为农民脱贫致富的渠道。人们才真实认识了在抗日烽火时，在一张破桌旁的罗登义。问：很多研究成果看似一时无关痛痒，最后往往都有大用。答：理论科学家是孤独的，我们要有战略耐心，要理解他们。屠呦呦做青蒿素是一样的。还有“探索创新、至诚报国”的黄大年也是一样的。他们头脑中的符号、公式、思维，世界上能与他们沟通的只有几个人。对理论科学家要尊重，因为我们不懂他的文化，社会要宽容，国家要支持。问：基础研究周期会很漫长，但企业是需要讲效益的。答：我们一年1800亿投入研发，大概有600亿是做基础理论研究，不考核。1200亿左右投入产品研发，投入是要考核的。没有理论就没有突破，我们就赶不上美国。问：这是一种长期主义，听说华为就有个“黄大年茶思屋”。答：黄大年是个伟大的科学家，我国是在海湾战争中发现这个人的。美军在直升机下有一个吊舱，探测萨达姆埋在沙漠里的武器，一开战就准确把它消灭了。再一找，才知道这吊舱是中国人做的，黄大年在英国大学做的一个探矿吊舱，北约用来做武器用。他辞职回国做了吉林大学老师。他用自己的钱，向学校要了一间40平米的房子，开了一个茶思屋负责提供免费咖啡，开展“一杯咖啡吸收宇宙能量”。我们得到他家族的授权，利用他的名字，做了一个黄大年茶思屋非盈利的网络平台，免费让大家查阅世界的科技信息。同时，对基础研究开放喇叭口，和各大院校合作。这些都是战略性投入，不考核的。基础理论这一块，我们内部建立一个机制，什么时候能做出来不知道，对科学家也不做要求。

Q: American economist Richard Wolff and other experts believe that the reason why the United States does not have a high-speed rail system as developed as China is mainly because the US follows the capitalist path, where everything must make money. China follows the socialist path, advocating for social benefits. High-speed rail, heavy-duty rail, advanced power grid, developed highways and cement roads leading to villages, water conservancy facilities everywhere, and power plants scattered all over the place…these do not make money, but they lay the foundation of a developed society, contributing to industrial and agricultural modernisation, reflecting the social value of state-owned enterprises. The marketisation of competitive commodities is regulated through market competition to achieve commercial value and contribute to society by paying taxes in accordance with the law. What do you think about this?

A: Why can only socialism do things that do not make money? One of the purposes of socialism is to develop society. The socialist market economic system that China has established is a great achievement. From the perspective of infrastructure construction, we can only follow the path of socialist market economy, otherwise high-speed rail, highways, dams... these things cannot be built.

Q: What do you think of the future prospects of AI?

A: Artificial intelligence may be the last technological revolution in human society; of course there may also be nuclear fusion of energy. The development of AI will take decades, hundreds of years. Don’t worry, China also has many advantages.

Q: How do you view these advantages?

A: China has hundreds of millions of young people, they are the future of the country. The General Secretary has said that the strength of a country and a nation is always supported by cultural prosperity. The technical key to AI is having sufficient electricity and developed information networks. Developing AI requires a power guarantee. China’s power generation and grid transmission are very good, the communication network is the world’s most developed, and it is possible to realise the ideal of ‘Eastern Data, Western Computing’.

Q: What about other advantages?

A: There is no need to worry about the chip problem. Using methods such as superposition and clustering, the calculation results are equivalent to the most advanced level. In terms of software, there will be thousands of open source software to meet the needs of the entire society in the future.

Q: How do you view China’s future?

A: Friedman left our company, bought himself a second-class high-speed rail ticket to experience China. Later he wrote an article ‘I Saw the Future, and It's Not in America.’

Q: We’ve read this article. He believes: ‘The reason Chinese manufacturing is as powerful as it is today is not only because of its high quality and ability to produce things more cheaply, but also because it can produce things faster, better, and more intelligently, and is increasingly integrating AI into products.’

A: Fundamentally speaking, algorithms are not in the hands of IT people, but in the hands of electricity experts, infrastructure experts, coal experts, pharmaceutical experts, various industry experts…In practice, China’s manufacturing industry is using AI very quickly, and many Chinese models will be born.

Q: For the development of private enterprises, what support does the country need to provide?

A: Rule of law, marketisation, government administration according to law and regulations. Enterprises mainly create value, make technological breakthroughs, abide by laws and regulations, and pay taxes in accordance with the law. This harmonious development model will allow the gradual release of economic vitality.

Q: How do you view openness and development?

A: The country is becoming increasingly open, and openness will promote our further progress. Under the leadership of the Party, the country is administratively unified, government orders are smoothly transmitted, gradually forming a unified large market is possible, and will definitely break through all blockades and achieve great rejuvenation.

问：美国经济学家理查德·沃尔夫等专家认为，美国为何没有像中国那样发达的高铁系统，主要是因为美国走的是资本主义道路，做什么都要赚钱。中国走的是社会主义的道路，国家主张的是社会效益，高铁、重载铁路、先进的电力网络、发达的高速公路以及通往乡村的水泥路，遍布各处的水利设施、星罗棋布的发电厂……这些并不赚钱，但垫起一个发达的社会基础，为工业、农业现代化作出了贡献，体现的是国有企业的社会价值。而对有竞争的商品实行市场化，通过市场的竞争来调节，使其实现商业价值，依法纳税贡献社会。对此，您怎么看？答：为什么不赚钱的事，只有社会主义做？社会主义的一个目的就是为了发展社会。我国搞的社会主义市场经济体制是伟大的壮举。从基础设施建设看，我们也只能走社会主义市场经济的道路，不然高铁、高速公路、水坝……这些东西都建不起来。问：您对人工智能的未来前景怎么看？答：人工智能也许是人类社会最后一次技术革命，当然可能还有能源的核聚变。人工智能发展要经历数十年、数百年。不要担心，中国也有很多优势。问：您怎么看这些优势？答：中国有数亿青少年，他们是国家的未来。总书记讲过，一个国家、一个民族的强盛，总是以文化兴盛为支撑的。人工智能在技术上的要害，是要有充足的电力、发达的信息网络。发展人工智能要有电力保障，中国的发电、电网传输都是非常好的，通信网络是世界最发达的，东数西算的理想是可能实现的。问：其他优势呢？答：芯片问题其实没必要担心，用叠加和集群等方法，计算结果上与最先进水平是相当的。软件方面，将来是千百种开源软件满足整个社会需要。问：怎么看中国的未来？答：弗里德曼离开我们公司，自己买了一张二等座的高铁票，去感受中国。后来写了篇文章《我看到了未来，它不在美国》。问：我们看过这篇文章，他认为：“中国制造业像今天这样强大的原因，不仅在于它的高质量，能更便宜地生产东西，也在于它能更快、更好、更智能地生产东西，而且正在越来越多地将人工智能融入产品中。”答：从根本上说，算法不掌握在IT人手里面，而是掌握在电力专家、基建专家、煤炭专家、医药专家、各类行业专家……手里面。实践层面看，中国制造业人工智能运用非常快，会诞生很多中国模型。问：民营企业发展，需要国家提供什么支持？答：法治化、市场化，政府依法依规行政。企业主要是价值创造、技术突破，遵纪守法，依法纳税。这个和谐的发展模式，就会让经济活力一点点地散发出来。问：怎么看待开放与发展？答：国家越来越开放，开放会促使我们更加进步。国家在党的领导下，行政上是统一的，政令是通达的，逐步形成统一的大市场是可能的，一定会突破所有的封锁，实现伟大的复兴。